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The church has a long record of not being very good with power and money, perhaps that is why Jesus seemed to model a life without much of either. The recent news from Florida is that Todd Bentley is stepping out of the limelight after admitting to an extramarital relationship with a female member of staff. This sad news is likely to mean that many who had put a messianic hope in Bentley will lose their faith, and become totally disillusioned with the Chrisitian faith, or at least the charismatic arm of the family.
‘We should have seen this coming’ scream many commentators, or ‘we saw this coming’ which is what they really want to say. Of course it isnt totally true, nobody knew Todd would have an affair, albeit purely ‘emotional’ as Fresh Fire point out.
The truth is that this shouldnt be seen as Todd being the incarnate demon that some try to portray him as - rather he is just a human being, a flawed, weak human being, like the rest of us. He is subject to the temptations that we all are, and for some time he has been in a position where the temptation to abuse his position must have been huge. Lots of good people have affairs, and sadly that is unlikely to stop - it is how we come out and deal with these situations that leave a lasting legacy.
But the main point is that these multi million dollar, high profile campaigns are incredibly intense situations. The sheer amount of money riding on the success of conferences and ministry events is incredible, and builds its own momentum. You have to promote the ‘big name’ speakers or ministers in order to get the income you need to pay for the event you’ve been putting on. You need to encourage the TV coverage, the soundbites, the wacky stunts, the feeling of superhumanity in the key attractions… and that takes its own toll.
I am a personal believer in the path of powerlessness, living with less. I dont agree with the philosophy of needing to do ‘big’ events - each person is dealt with on an individual basis, there are plenty of us, we dont need to rely on one ‘big name’ speaker or minister to pronounce to the multitudes. These big scale events rely on a level of corporate cognitive dissonance, the mass suspension of disbelief, which is different to belief itself, and even an element of hysteria (although I dont like the last word, as it relates directly and unfairly to women).
Yes I’m sure there is a place for mass gatherings, I count festivals and celebration events in this, but lets not build these as the central point of ministry - they become black holes which suck up into themselves huge amounts of cash and spew out waves of power, both of which can be totally toxic, and can wreck marriages, lives, ministries, fragile faiths, etc.
In one article one of the fresh fire leaders has written, there is a strong urge for people not to be put off from going to one of their big conferences, at which Todd had been scheduled to speak - obviously he wont be speaking there now, but they promise instead another ’surprise’ speaker. I’m sure this event is already booked and paid for… the money to pay for it has to come from somewhere!
I am hoping to get along to this event, which is in three short months time…
If you fancy getting involved, or just showing your face, check out their site, and get involved. Be the change you want to see…
Kyb, its always been a pleasure disagreeing with you, and this has been no exception – but the post is now so long, I’m putting it in as new post, a link to the original is here, see the comments for the start of our discussion.
For the unitiated, my initial assertion was that I Jesus was homeless and skint, Kyb employed his considerable intellect to make certain disagreements, we discussed it, and ended up here:
Kyb’s points are in italics, and my responses to them are in normal text.
They absolutely had the money to pay the temple tax. Peter had no hesitation in answering “Yes he does” to the people who asked if Jesus paid the temple tax. The fish thing is a gigantic joke by Jesus who wants to avoid making his disciple look a fool while at the same time claiming exemption from the tax.
Peter’s response is an impulsive one, a defensive response to his master’s honour – much like the ear cutting off incident.
My take on the fish incident is in part what you describe, a disarming sleight of hand, a piece of physical theatre, which is something else he liked to do.
He did have somewhere to live - with his family, who at one point came to take him home, but chose not to, instead staying with his friends and disciples around the country, many of whom were wealthy.
This is semantics, under this assessment, everybody has somewhere to live, for is there really nobody who would take them in? No, Jesus says: “foxes have holes… etc (Matt 8: 20) which has long been understood to mean that Jesus was entirely dependant upon God and the charity of others for a place to sleep. Even the Pope in 1997 said about this passage: “The Lord wished to show his total openness to his Heavenly Father, whose will he was determined to carry out without letting himself be hindered by the possession of worldly goods: for there is always a danger that earthly realities will take the place of God in the human heart.”
In fact, I don’t believe that he forced his mother into poverty because of his mission, I think part of why he probably started his mission so relatively late is because before that he was assuring her and his own financial independence (since Joseph seemed to be no longer in the picture).
Jesus didn’t start his ministry late, it would be normal for a levitical priest/ rabbi to collect his disciples at the age of 30.
I can’t believe that the same guy who preached against the teachers of the laws use of Corban to avoid providing for their parents would neglect his own duties to his family and younger siblings.
There is not necessarily a question of leaving his family in poverty, as you point out they had a home, his brothers were probably of working age, Joseph may still have been around, and when he was crucified, he commended his mother to his disciple’s care. Anyway, you might say he had a greater responsibility…?
Of course the soldiers only had his clothes to divide up - none of his property was in Jerusalem, and when they arrested him, they took only him, leaving his camp full of disciples and the communal belongings behind.
I don’t know why you think the guy who said ‘dont store up for yourself treasures on earth’ had property, or where you think he would have kept it. Did nomadic rabbis have lock up garages?
His disciples picked wild food to eat as they were walking through a field, as anyone would. They also had no problem going into town to buy food while he met the woman at the well, or renting an upper room. Even after he died, they were able to remain in the city, eat, living without having to revert back to their old jobs.
Ok, I’ll give you this, I do think they probably had some money now and then, but not a lot. I doubt they would have had to buy a lot of food or hire a room, I think there would have been a culture of hospitality in the 1st century Palestine just as there is now. This ties in with the common misconception that Joseph and Mary would have had to go to a ‘hotel’ in Bethlehem, a hotel? What do people think? That Premier Inn had a Bethlehem branch? The natural thing would have been (since they were going to the town of their ancestors) that they would stay with relatives, but somehow we’ve misconstrued the word used into the idea they went to stay with mr innkeeper. Nice for nativity plays, just doesn’t make much sense. If we consider this wider question in the light of what we know about the culture of the place and time, these holy men wouldn’t have been likely to pay for such hospitality.
Luke 9:14 ” They answered, “We have only five loaves of bread and two fish—unless we go and buy food for all this crowd.” 14(About five thousand men were there.)
That may have been sarcasm, but strongly suggests to me that they had at least eight months wages in the kitty (which Philip tells us wouldn’t quite be enough).
I don’t know what the protocol would have been for this kind of situation, or who would have been regarded the host, and who the guests, but there is an implicit assumption on your part that the disciples would have bought the food with their own funds, which is not necessarily correct. The parable here may be more to do with people co-operating than we think. I don’t want to take away from the supernatural ability of Jesus, but I am minded to think that maybe it was the simple act of sharing which provided the answer here…
As a Rabbi, he would have been responsible for his disciples, I don’t think he would have taken that responsibility on if he didn’t know he could look after them.
Don’t you think he knew God would be able to provide for them? In Matthew 6, he tells other people to expect that God can provide for their needs, so why wouldn’t he expect God to provide for his?
I’m not sure why you think Judas only took the 30 pieces of silver with him on desertion. In fact, according to Matthew, he tried to return the money when he realised what he’d done. It wouldn’t have made sense to try to return the 30 pieces plus the contents of the kitty. I suspect that he didn’t expect them to actually execute Jesus, otherwise he wouldn’t have been so remorseful, and that he almost certainly left the kitty with the other disciples when he went to commit suicide.
Yeah maybe I’m wide of the mark on this one, but I don’t see any evidence of Judas being left with any money, or the disciples having a polite chat with Judas in the aftermath… “I say Judas, you really have done it now, you’d better sling your hook old chap, and don’t even think of taking the dosh you blighter.” I see the suicide as a final act of someone who knew he had blown it completely, filled with remorse and desperation, who threw the coins back at the priests, who wouldn’t accept them back as they were blood money, and went and hung himself, unable to return to his friends or former life. Unless your take is that Judas’ betrayal was an attempt to precipitate a revolution, which I accept as a possibility, another large possibility is that it was motivated by money.
Women were prepared to give their entire dowry to Jesus in costly shows of affection. Tax collectors and very wealthy men left their professions to do whatever he said. He was invited to parties all over the place. I think there would have been many gifts to his kitty - to the extent that it would be worthy stealing from, and thinking that there was enough there that you’d get away with it too.
The specific incident you mention is notable because of many reasons, for one thing, the disciples said: “This could have been sold, and the money given to the poor.” They didn’t say, ‘could have been used to expand our ministry/ buy you a donkey/ meet the day to day running costs’.
Historians tell us that at the time there was a huge remove between rich and poor, with the majority (95%) of people living on the edge of destitution, subsistence farming, living in poverty and oppression. There was a tiny, massively wealthy elite. Unless Jesus was (as much the church appears to believe) the ambassador of the middle class, which would have been totally unlike other rabbis of the time, who were itinerant and dependant upon charity. Then he must have been poor or rich, I choose to look at the evidence and conclude he was not rich. (For instance in his response to the rich young man.)
I can only find one verse in the bible where Jesus says “Blessed are the poor”, and I think the comparison between Luke 6:20 and Matthew 5:3 raises doubts about whether he was meaning that financially or not.
I am not saying that blessed are the poor means only the poor materially, it is widely held to be the ‘poor in spirit’ which in turn refers to those totally dependant upon God. Yes many poor people would fall into this category, and few rich people.
Personally I don’t think that God wants to spend his time providing for people to whom he has given the intelligence and strength to provide both for themselves and to fulfil their obligation to provide for others.
You think God is restricted by time?
And you think its necessary for you and I to strive to provide for others? Lets be clear, there is plenty of money maybe even just inside the church as it is at the moment, to feed the world. If we were to live as Jesus did, only taking for each of us what we need, and to give freely to one another as each of us has need, there would be no poverty in the world. This is a distraction, which serves to enslave most of us to the producer/consumer lifestyle. Very few people do what you suggest and earn money, taking only what they need and giving the rest away, we need more people to live with less, not more to earn more.
Rather, I prefer the example of Paul, who when it was necessary (and sometimes even when he could have claimed support didn’t) worked hard for his living so as not to be a burden to those he was ministering to.
I tend to look at Paul, who said he was able to be happy in any situation, riches or poverty, and see someone who ministered naturally within his context. He worked in the marketplace, and ministered there, modeling a different way of life. He wasn’t simply working as a way to fund his ministry – it was part of his ministry.
True generosity, said Ghandi, is not to be found in giving, but in only taking what you really need. Riches are not a blessing, the rich find it very difficult to enter the kingdom, even in Jesus time that was true, it remains so now.
Lets not forget the old Sunday school song about Peter and John who were asked for alms by the lame man: “Silver and Gold have I none, but such as I have do I give to thee…”
Those kind people at Zondervan sent me a copy of Jesus for President to review, so here goes…
I regard this as one of the best, most challenging and thought provoking books around at the moment. Despite it’s American target audience (we don’t have a president here – yet) this makes great reading for any reader, as its themes are universal.
This is unlikely to look like any book you have ever read before, it’s got nearly as much in common with a graphic novel as it has with a standard text book. The best comparison I can give, and it is quite inappropriate really given the anti consumerist approach of the authors, is with a Howies clothing catalogue. It has that same earthy, lived in, thoughtful, artistic and engaging feel, but thankfully without the pictures of models wearing expensive clothes.
Put simply, this has got to be one of the most beautifully designed books on the market – working with the writing, the design emphasises the creative, radical spirit of the text, and the provocative joy of the authors. Quite rightly the designers, Holly and Ryan Sharp, are credited at the end of the book along with the writers. The colour is full throughout the book, with design elements interacting with the text throughout, which adds immensely to the value of the content. If you liked the look of ‘Irresistible Revolution’ then this is a quantum leap forward, like as if the publishers suddenly realised what this thing was all about…
In some ways it reminds me of an illuminated manuscript, from back in the day of monkishness, when religious texts were coloured and illustrated by devoted scholars. This fits with the fact that the authors are part of the new monastic movement – and perhaps this could be seen as the contemporary equivalent.
But aside from a fantastic design job – what does the latest offering from our dreadlocked brother actually contain? Well first point to make, there are very clearly two voices audible in this book. Claiborne and Haw have coinciding views, but different emphases, or perhaps just different experiences, which while bringing occasional difficulties to the academic niceties of the text, actually helps lend weight to this book. Actually – if you count the design, then add in one or two more voices as well.
Written throughout in easily digestible chunks, the book begins as a dissection of a theme of radical God politics which the authors show running through the bible. It sidetracks through stories of friends, writings of early Christians and reflections on current affairs.
It’s a book of stories, parables, and prophecy, it is not supposed to be a tome, or a text book, or a prize winning essay – this is a work of love, an object of discussion, a catalyst (for want of a less clichéd term) for renewed engagement with the themes, and an encouragement to live a different way.
Rather than taking an easy option, such as a single standpoint, of a Christian anarchy for example, or an anti war vote, Claiborne and Haw manage to turn the whole idea around, arguing for a radical Christian engagement with politics and society in a way that is at once submissive and subversive. American voters wanting to know who the writers say they should vote for, will find themselves left with the same choices, but hopefully looking at them through new, or perhaps ancient lenses. I suspect also that this will help many bring a new creativity to their decision making.
Pacifism and anti (or non) consumerism are key themes, but they each form only part of the overall principal argument, which is to see God’s people as a people set apart by God, called to live another way, and to follow only one leader. It critiques the philosophy that one can serve God, and walk in the way of the world.
This clarion call to a subversive and renewed people of God is a creative and stimulating read – it’s not without its problems, one cant help thinking that if Claiborne authors another book, he will have come close to being part of the system which he so clearly wants to work against, but at the same time, I like many others would be happy to read anything he writes. One might also question how the authors can happily work with others such as Jim Wallis who argue for a more conventional approach to politics… clearly McLaren is not the only one with a generous orthodoxy these days.
Some readers may find biblical references to apocryphal books troubling or confusing, I don’t, in fact I like it. Some factual discrepancies may exist within the text, (numbers of dead in Iraq, or etc) but these are minor when looked at in context, and can be put down to the issue of dual authorship.
It’s a beautiful, peaceful, challenging, affirming, prophetic, subversive and creative book, well worth reading, sharing, mulling over… likely to become a classic.
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| What’s your theological worldview? created with QuizFarm.com |
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| You scored as Emergent/Postmodern
You are Emergent/Postmodern in your theology. You feel alienated from older forms of church, you don’t think they connect to modern culture very well. No one knows the whole truth about God, and we have much to learn from each other, and so learning takes place in dialogue. Evangelism should take place in relationships rather than through crusades and altar-calls. People are interested in spirituality and want to ask questions, so the church should help them to do this.
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I took this entertaining quiz, what is your theological worldview?
Pretty funny stuff, as probably the two spheres I operate most in are the charismatic/pentecostal and the reformed evangelical… ho hum.
ht: hamo
I’ve been giving a lot of thought to the happenings in Florida, Dudley, and closer to home for me, the meetings that have been held in Llanelli recently.
I’ve been around charismatic church for a fairly long time now, I’ve seen a few different waves come and go, all of which doesnt make me any better at discerning between the good stuff and the dross, in fact it may have made me worse, as I am definitely more cynical now than I was, but all in all I hope it has leant me some perspective which is useful.
So my natural reaction when I hear about new revivals or miraculous ministries, is to be catious. The first time I saw Todd Bentley in action was in a video projected in a church meeting. I had never heard of him, and was not particularly taken with his style, or what he had to say. I was most disturbed though when the encouragement was given to: “look at this with the eyes of a child, dont let your brain get in the way” - I paraphrase, I wasnt carrying my notepad.
I think that all of these waves of spiritual renewal/revival etc need to be looked at from two perspectives simultaneously: 1) God can do anything, and frequently works in strange ways through strange people. 2) The bible warns, and experience shows that false prophets are all around, against whom we need to be on our guard.
Assuredly most of those false prophets are those who have so effectively encouraged and enabled us to syncretise Jesus teachings with secular materialism, or empire worship. But some of them are knocking around in the crazy charismatic scene too.
Get where I’m coming from on this, I am part of two different self styled charismatic churches. I’m not anti Charismaticism, I dont think we should all just chant and meditate all the time, I beleive that there is a healthy mix, which involves corporate expression, holy spirit stuff, silence, lots of other stuff too.
I find the ‘post charismatic‘ approach rather sniffy, somewhat too close to looking down the nose at those in a more primitive state. This is just as wrong as the approach that says ‘unless you’re getting slain in the spirit all the time, you arent in the right place’.
So back to Bentley, I have a few points that I dont like about this Florida stuff.
1) I feel like its too close to being a personality cult. There’s a lot of talk about Todd Bentley, I would prefer if there were lots of talk about Jesus, and everyone else involved was of little importance. I know that this is the way it goes of course, Evan Roberts was the big name in the Welsh Revival, but I dont get the impression he was the same kind of character as mr Bentley. From the stuff I’ve heard and read about Todd, he seems an anointed individual, and a damaged individual. Some of the things he writes and says, such as the well referenced trip to heaven where Paul tells him how Abraham gave him the material for the book of Galatians seems out and out nonsense. However, people are getting healed, and apparently even raised from the dead… (If I was wikipedia, I’d say citation needed). (On one video a guy ministering with Todd declares: ‘The moslems have a spirit of infirmity because of inbreeding…’ huh?
2) There is an unhealthy approach to money. This seems to be a major problem in America, and I cant quite get to grips with it. You’ve got people like Joyce Meyer living in vast mansions, complaining about taxes etc, while all over the world people dwell and die in abject poverty… that’s just weird and wrong. On Todd’s website I read that there are three ways of giving to the ministry, if you go for the top level ($500 per month, or a one off payment of $5000) you get special access to Todd, including special ministry sessions and stuff. Euurgh. That is just disgusting. Not what I see as fruit of a truly Jesus devoted life.
3) I have a problem with this kind of phenomena which is that it proves exciting for a while, but then people get disillusioned, and when they find the only place they’re getting the experience is in Todd’s meetings… and perhaps even that’s not what it was… guess what? They pack it in, Christianity is another thing to write off. Hmmm. This is a big problem.
4) It has sparked another gold rush of Christians jumping in planes to get over to Florida in order to be able to catch the spirit and bring it back home. This just makes me uncomfortable… maybe I’m wrong, but I just dont see God working like this. If anything, then what happened at Pentecost, and the 1904 revival, was that people went out from the outpouring to pour out their lives into other places, and that is how the thing travelled. But instead, people who are in the midst, seem just to stay there, desperate for another hit… its a kind of consumerist holy ghost experience, get as much as you can while stocks last.
5) And lastly I’m yet to see any fruit from all of this - and that is surely the biggest proof of what value something has. If we see radical shifts in church, people selling their goods and giving the money to the poor (or Todd B???) then that will be a good sign. That’s the kind of thing we see afterwards, so a bit of hindsight will be helpful on this one.
Here in Llanelli, Antioch Church has recently hosted an event called ’slosh fest’ - subtitle ‘head in the barrel’.
With the help of Emerge Wales, and assorted bods from the charismatic world, they held a few days of meetings where the holy spirit stuff was really emphasised. I have to admit, I didnt go, although I often go to Antioch’s sunday services. I dont like the idea of a ’slosh fest’ - but I’ve been interested to look at the aftermath.
Without a doubt (in my mind) there was some bonkers stuff going on. I’m not convinced that the prophecy of streets full of people in spiritual trances is right (I heard that one from the train station platform!) And I am sorry, but I’m pretty sure some people were just there for an experiential spiritual hit - which I think is a crap reason to go to a meeting.
But here’s the reason I respect Antioch - they are fully and holisitically engaged in their community, which is a rough one. And the outworking of the slosh fest thing is that this engagement has increased. They’re doing more work out on the street, they are not just sloshing up all the time. This is a clear example of fruit - and it suggests to me that there is something genuinely happening here.
I may not like the type of meeting, I dont fall down or twitch, or make funny noises like a lot of the Antioch folk do, but if God is doing something in them with the twitching and what not, which means they will have a greater impact on the poor and downtrodden around them, I’m happy about that.
A few of the Antioch leaders went to Florida, they seem to have been impacted by it - I cant say that it seems to have particularly impacted the rest of the folk there. (On a side note, one lady (not an Antioch regular) came up to me and said she had been to Florida, she told me when she was there, God told her to put her hands on people and make a ‘wooshing’ noise. She wanted to know if I minded… I said ‘no, please go ahead’. Guess what, nothing happened, but at least she didnt try to push me over 
)
So here’s my opinion in a nutshell (after 1300 odd words) Todd Bentley: anointed but flawed, handle with care. Florida revival: probably not a revival, let’s wait and see. New Charismatics: don’t give them a hard time, they might be nutty, but the ones I know have hearts devoted to Jesus, and are living out their faith in a very real way. They are mental though ;) Post charismatics: smacks a little of spiritual snobbery, lets accept our differences and all get along.
“No matter how dangerous the medieval pilgrimage might be, and it frequently was, pilgrims always hoped to return even if they set their affairs in order lest death met them on the way. The Celts set out with no thought of return.”
Rediscovering the Celts, page155, Robinson, 2000. Published by Fount.
Not being brought up in the Church of England and all that, I dont know really very much about liturgy, and proper liturgical ways, but I notice Mark Berry has just posted up his meditation material for tomorrow which is the feast day of St Julian don’t y’know.
He’s got a nifty thing going on with hazelnuts, which looks cool, and is doubtless destined to be deemed a ‘worship trick’ by Jonny B.
In the meantime, and back on the subject of liturgy etc, I’ve just written some stuff for tomorrow too, for the meditational/devotional beginning to our prayer morning. In case you are interested - here it is.
Begin with a welcoming, a corporate chant, and a silent meditation on Bible passage. Then:
The Affirming. (Read this out loud together).
Oh Lord
Our God
We submit again to you today.
Still our hearts
Calm our heads
As you calmed the storm.
Creator, redeemer, companion
Father, prince, friend
Almighty, unstinting, constant.
You who always were
Forever are
Ever more shall be
We who breathe in,
And breathe out,
Know your goodness
*Take some moments to silently resubmit to God – confessing your sins and asking that he takes you forward with him today.
The Asking. (Read this out loud together).
We ask today Lord:
That we would not judge
That we would see beauty in all others.
That we would come before you in humility.
That we would set aside our wants, for the sake of others.
We ask today Father:
That you would provide for your people.
That you would lead us away from temptations.
That we would see the world through your eyes.
That you would raise up more to work alongside us.
We ask today Spirit:
That you would comfort those who mourn.
That you would inspire those whose hearts begin to falter.
That you would remind us of our commitments.
That you would strengthen weary limbs.
*Take some moments to silently ask God for his word for your life today.
The calling. (Read this out loud together).
We call on each other to rise up.
We call on our hearts to stay firm.
We call on our hands to grip.
We call on the Lord – for he is our source, our inspiration, our light.
We call on each other to live today.
We call on our minds to choose life.
We call on our legs to stay strong beneath us.
We call on the Lord – for he is our redeemer, our strength, our all in all.
*Take some moments to silently ask God to be your strength today.
The blessing. (Read this out loud together).
Bless the Lord, Oh my soul.
May this day bring peace to the troubled,
Comfort to the downcast
Clarity to the confused
Joy amidst tears
Laughter amidst pain
Bless the Lord, Oh my soul.
* take some moments to pray for those who are suffering or oppressed. If none come to mind, pray for justice to flow like a river over the war zones of the world.
Closing prayer:
Oh High King of heaven, we worship you.
Have mercy on your children.
Fill us afresh today with your holy spirit.
Revive in us passion for the lost and the least.
That your kingdom may come,
On earth as in heaven,
In Jesus mighty name,
Amen.
I enjoyed the conference on New Monasticism, jointly organised by the Anabaptist network, and the Northumbria community.
Not being part of either of these networks, but interested in both, we went along without much of an idea of what the event would be like. We found it both encouraging and inspiring.
The morning sessions included a time of worship led by the Northumbrians who took us through their morning office. Then Pete Askew of the community introduced Stuart Murray Williams of the Anabaptist network, and Roy Searle of the Northumbria Community. Roy plays cricket with my old P.E. teacher!
There followed two talks - one about Anabaptism, which I went to, and one about the Northumbrian community which Kel went to. I found the explanation of the history of Anabaptism very interesting, and was able to corner Murray Williams at lunch time to quiz him on whether Anabaptists, with their adherence to non violence and peace making, can take an active part in politics outside of anarchism. His answer boiled down to: “there are a number of different opinions about that!”
I also bumped into Mark Berry, the emerging church leader from Telford, who I recognised from his dodgy hair do. It was nice to have a chat, after having commented on his blog occasionally and read a lot about what he’s doing over there.
Other emerging church types knocking about included Ian Mobsby from Moot in London, and Ian Adams from Maybe in Oxford among others.
Brother Samuel from the Aglican order of Franciscans added a touch of gravitas and extra dollops of wisdom. Although he’s not a ‘new monastic’ it is fair to say that his order is less than ancient itself! I really agreed with his remark that one of the key things for a committed ‘monastic’ type community is that they work together manually. His comment ‘there is some very deep spiritual wisdom in making bread’ is so true.
After lunch there was a choice of workshops - I went to a discussion between Ian Mobsby and Brother Samuel - conparing and contrasting the old monastics and the new. Just how monastic are the new monastics? Good question. One of the main themes coming out, and well made by Mobsby and others, was that its more about being frianrs than being monks.
The distinction being that Monks tended to seclude themselves, while friars went out into the community to live out their faith. This is true to a degree, but of course only really applies to certain streams of monkism. Anyhow, I liked the concpet of ‘re-friaring’ the church, but it’s easier to say re-monking!
This session allowed more of a discourse between those in the meeting and the speakers than the first session had - which was very valuable.
More conversations and question and answer sessions followed, with a final session of worship in an Anabaptist style, which included a lovely way of singing the Shema Yisrael among other things.
In all, Kel and I were both really encouraged by what we saw, and the people we met. There were a lot of different types of people there, from the rather posh, to the decidedly not posh - from the emerging church smoothies to the Jesus Army. I’d have liked to have seen some more of the missionary community there, and perhaps some of the 24/7 folk, but that would have just been more icing on an already rich cake.
Well done to all the organisers, I thought it provided a good platform for those who are interested in finding out what others are doing in this area, but arent perhaps able to make all of the connections themselves! Looking forward to more.
I’m in Grimsby now, having eventually got up here last night after a thoroughly enjoyable, if slightly tiring wonder around the UK. In edited highlights - the trip consisted of a cup of tea with Wes Sutton, leader of the Oasis Trust ‘church.co.uk‘ network, at the Oasis base in Waterloo. I was really impressed by what the network is doing in Waterloo, and excited to hear their plans for other projects, some alreadty on the go. Later that evening I returned to the same building, to hear Shane Claiborne speak about his experiences living as an Ordinary Radical. I found out about that event by signing up to a Chrisitan Anarchists mailing list, even though I’m not really an Anarchist. (Shhhh! Don’t tell!)
That night (Wednesday) was spent with Kyber and Mrs Netikos, at their flat in South London. Conversations ranged from virtual reality, to killlng sheep with bolt guns, to archery. And places in between.
Next day, I got to spend some quality time with a friend who wants to expand his clothing company to include a fully ethical range. He’s already working as hard as he can to ensure his suppliers meet the hghest standards of looking after their workforce, and is trying to integrate organic and fairly traded materials into his supply chain. Seems like I’ll be able to help him, which is great.
A bit of a rush over to Euston station then, where I was able to grab a few minutes with Dan Radice of Cokoon. It was good to find out what he’s up to, and to consider what possibilities there are for the future.
Off on to Northampton then, to spend some time with Julie, who is planning to join World Horizons in the summer. I also got a chance to meet Julie’s church, which is an interesting ecumenical fellowship in the heart of the town, very engaged with their community, and offering a whole load of services, from a shoppers coffee shop, to counselling rooms, and various other things throughout their five separate congregations.
On Friday I headed to Shrewsbury via Birmingham - Shrewsbury is home to Ian Matthews and his family. Ian is now working for Zondervan in the UK, but I remember him from our first meeting over ten years ago, when he came to work on a late and unlamented Christian magazine that I worked on at that time. Ian became a friend then, and has remained so, despite not having seen him for a long time.
It was fascinating to see how he and I, through very different paths and in relationship with very different people, have arrived at a very similar place theologically and philosophically (although he’s a left wing libertarian, and I’m not) - it was as surprising as it was encouraging. We both share the same desire to find a way of living in community as families that really works well - I think we agreed that the ideal scenario would be for a group of families to form an open cooperative, the co-op would then own the property, and the families would pay rent to it. Given that it nullifies the effects that personal ownership of property have, and allows for a vaiety of people to live in community in a wholesome way, it seems like the best option. Now, if we could find some other families in Grimsby who were up for that…
A reunion with Kelly and the kids (hooray) meant a short journey to Walsall where we spent the night, and after dispatching the kids to their Grandparents, we went off to the New Monasticism conference in Coventry - which was excellent. I shall blog further details of that soon.
A last laid back drive along the A46 took us all the way to Grimbo - and tea.
I’m off to London today, then to Northampton and other destinations before ending up at the New Monasticism conference in Coventry on Saturday - that means dont expect to hear much from me over the next few days, not that you have over the last few 
The news about Paul Lister, and his determination to ‘re-wild’ his own patch of the Scottish highlands is a classic story of contemporary Britain, and it has a lot to say about the situation facing the church in this fair isle too.
First there is the fantastic story of the multi millionaire businessman, who having bought his own patch of Bonnie Scotland has decided to return it to the way nature intended, spending millions on bringing back boars and moose, planting native trees and plants, and even making desperate attempts to bring back wolves and bears too.
Then there’s the problems - he has fenced his estate in, enraging the walkers and climbers who have the hard won freedom to explore them thar hills. More than that, if his estate is fenced, then it cant be a wilderness, its a zoo, and in a zoo you cant let the nasty animals eat the nice ones!
Its a story that will go on and on until one day the money runs out, or somebody lets Lister have his way. On a personal level, I have a lot of sympathy for the idea of re-wilding the countryside, but in all honesty I cant see it happenning in the UK. The British countryside is a vast money making machine, reintroducing animals like wolves into it would sound a death knell for shooting estates and sheep farms for a start.
And this leads me on to the church.
I would dearly love to see the church re-wilded. Like Scotland, the church has the appearance of wildness. But in reality the wild place it once was, is no more. Just as Scotland has been tamed, its natural appearance transformed, and many of its natural inhabitants hunted into extinction, so the church is practically unrecognisable from what it once was.
Like Scotland and its over abundance of red deer, which many think are beautiful and pretty wild in themselves, the church has become overpopulated with grazers, who roam around looking pretty, fighting with each other and generally just munching up the foliage.
It is the high population of red deer which means that Scotland will be unable to re instate its natural vegetation, the red deer just scoff it. A consistent cull of red deer is already necessary just to maintain the vegetation it has got. The heather that has come to be the symbol of scots mountainside is in fact a weed, a parasite which smothers the growth of anything new, or anything ancient which seeks rebirth.
The venerable scottish thistle can still be found, bristling in its spikyness - but its not a very attractive plant really, not when all those thorns get on your fingers.
In the church we have our own flora and fauna - we might consider our traditions and practises as flora - they cover the church, they appear to be the distinctive feature of the church, and all too often they smother the birth of anything new, or the re birth of anything ancient.
Where a venerable outpost of early Christianity exists, its often too spiky for us to cope with.
What is the answer for Scotland? First bring back boars - we need pigs who root around and stir up the ground. In the church, we too need those who will root around, make a mess, be a bit dangerous - dig stuff up, turn it over, make a noise.
Bring back predators - lets be honest whatthe church needs like a hole in the head (I should know, I’ve got a hole in my head) is more deer. More people to look pretty, but be good for nothing but shooting. We dont need those pew fillers, those ‘Christians’ who refuse to let the notion of discipleship affect their lives in any way other than what social groups they mix in, and what they will watch on tele.
Lets get some wolves in, who will kill these deer, or at least scare them off. Lets reduce the deer number, whittle them down. Lets get some bears in too - big brutes who can really make some impact on the world.
Lets find some of that old vegetation which has died out, and encourage it to grow again. Lets embrace the dirty, the dangerous, the wild.
Lets say no to the sanitised version of church, and say yes to re-wilding.
But lets not put a fence around it - instead of creating a zoo which looks like a wild place, lets create a real wildness - that spreads like a virus over the world. And guess what, that needs the estate managers, those who have grown fat and confortable on the money making activities of the church to change their ways.
Lets accept the fact that making a living out of this is not what its about, this is not an enterprise! Its not a business! This should be a wild place, with wild people and wild ideas - ideas about changing the world, about self denial, about love, about compassion, about God.
Let’s pray that God, who is the ultimate multi millionaire, will re-wild us, killing off those who are having a negative impact, and planting new growthin the old vegetation. I see signs of wildness, shadows of it, pockets of it… I see it in World Horizons, I see it in the Simple Way, I see it in alternative worship, I see it in the new monastics… but I long for the day when the real wildness will break out, and we’ll be back to the way we should be.
(Except now I’m worried that I’m a deer, when I ought to be a moose, or a pig, or a wolf… or perhaps a red squirrel. The red bit is right anyhow.)
I am really looking forward to going to the ‘New habits for a new era?‘ New Monastics conference on May the 3rd. I had the schedule emailed through a few days ago, and it looks great.
The day kicks off with worship followed by introductory sessions to Anabaptism and the Northumbria community,
After lunch there is a choice of sessions: including - Chip off the old block? (Brother Samuel, Ian Mobsby), Street-level monks? (John & Deanna Hayes, Ru & Ben Brown), Ebb and flow (Pete & Catherine Askew),Home-made habits? (Karen Stallard, Sally Nash), and Into Great Silence (for those who have heard the other stuff already.)
Other good stuff follows, but I’m already struggling to decide which bits to go to.
Looking at the quality of folks participating, this shapes up to be a really good conference.
I personally am really inspired by the potential of this growing movement to make a significant impact on society. When Antony became the first hermit monk, back in the first couple of centuries AD, he did it as much to get away from the complacency and compromise of the church, as he did to get away from society.
I think we are seeing a similar discontentment with shallow living arising again in the church, and the growth of interest in new monasticism is an indicator of that. But what we need to be sure of, is that we ourselves dont fall into the same trap, and become just another stale Christian gimmick.
See you there?
I am hoping to be in London on April 30th, if I am, I shall be going to hear Shane Claiborne speak at the church.co.uk Waterloo. Its a free session - question and answer based I think, I doubt I’ll be the only one there….
Wednesday 30 April 2008
Church.co.uk, 1a Kennington
Road, London, SE1 7QP
7:30pm
Free
It’s worth noting there is a free download of a talk Shane gave at ‘The New Conspirators’ recently available here, along with a load of other good stuff, which is available for very little. h/t Mark Berry.
About ten years or so ago, I was priveliged to be part of a small group of people who were involved in something called SPEAK. SPEAK started out as, and went on to become, a campaigning and prayer based movement of students and young people, dedicated to tackling injustice.
I believe there are now SPEAK cells in various universities, and SPEAK activists in various parts of the UK as well as other countries.
I was contacted the other day by someone from SPEAK, who didnt know of my previous connections with the movement (I was only a lad in them days) and asked me if I could publicise their upcoming gathering in Sheffield - which sadly I wont be able to attend.
The whole thing is being held in ‘the world’s biggest dress’ itself a symbolic statement of protest about the garment industry - another thing that is close to my heart.
I would warmly reccomend that you check them out if you can be in Sheffield on May 10th and 11th. You can read more about it here. Should be great.
The increasing awareness of the fact that people around the world are starving, and its partly our fault, is leading more and more of us to recognise that we need to change our eating habits.
Most of the publicity at the moment is going towards the demonisation of bio fuels, which we already know are in danger of being described as a crime against humanity.
That is good, we have to acknowledge that switching from petroleum to bio fuels isnt enough, we must cut our consumption instead.
But we also can no longer ignore the issue of meat. My opinions on the future of meat eating are already clear, and I feel there is a growing ground swell of opinion which is supporting this view. George Monbiot writes today about the need to cut our meat consumption - he tried veganism for 18 months apparently, and turned grey… I’ve never been a vegan, but I’ve been a vegetarian for many years now, and am full of health!
Monbiot advocates what I call the ‘meat as treat’ solution: “The only reasonable answer to the question of how much meat we should eat is as little as possible. Let’s reserve it - as most societies have done until recently - for special occasions.”
Amen brother.
Meat production is hugely damaging to the environment, and continuing to over consume it is just not a viable option. It is not true to say that all cattle are grazed on grass land and so they arent harming grain stocks, which is an excuse I have heard some give. Apart from the methane emissions alone, which are huge, cattle account for a vast amount of grain and water consumption per kilo of beef.
Even for those who can write of environmental concerns as less important than human concerns, this has got to be a big issue - all over the world people are starving and food riots are happening. We need urgent action on this, if you eat meat, please consider your posistion. If you are a Christian and you eat meat, then that’s doubly true.
There are a couple of interesting questions I’ve been pondering arising out of blogland, one where Lee Proudlove aka Anselmic asked if cattle farts are really an appropriate topic for a high profile Easter message… I entered into that one in perhaps a little too verbose manner, and may have bored Lee into silence: sorry Lee. Good stuff though, lets talk more about cattle farts, and why people SHOULD EAT LESS MEAT!
Then I followed a link from Hamo’s blog to a question this morning: is it possible to follow Jesus and believe in evolution. Which is a good question actually as it opens so many theological discussion points. Plenty of comments coming along there, so that’s something to keep an eye on. Of course that goes back to the whole dawn of creation, when people DIDN’T EAT MEAT!
Gosh, I never even realised those two were linked until now…
there’s a really good interview with Pete Rollins, of the Belfast based Ikon, on the Wittenburg door at the moment. It’s well worth a read, as it is fair to say he’s ‘quite clever’.
For example, when askedabout his ‘belief that the truth in Christianity is not described but experiential?’ he responds: “In a sense I would not even want to say that the truth of Christianity is experiential in so much as the truth of Christianity is life and life is not experienced.”
hmmm. yup, good point.
Or when asked what it means to be a Christian: “It means entering into a journey of becoming one. It does not mean accepting a world view but rather entering into a healing journey of life. To be a Christian also means that one is committed to exploring this life through the Judeo-Christian tradition, wrestling with it, learning from it and being transformed by it. Being a Christian means learning how to be the opening of life into the world.”
nicely put.
I first heard about this on Jonny Baker’s blog, but since then I’ve seen it mentioned elsewhere too. Well worth a read.
Steve Hayes, writer of ‘Notes from Underground’ has been around the block a few times. Occasionally he writes lengthy and fascinating reminisinces of life in Southern Africa, and today he has provided one such, which gives a really valuable insight into the heritage of ‘new’ monasticism.
With vivid detail he recounts stories of past experiments with community living of different kinds, and the ways that some of these have ended (in most cases not well!) Perhaps one of the most fascinating accounts he gives is of early encounters with the ‘Children of God’, which took place before the move into flirty fishing, and so on.
But I think the most valuable part of this particular post, is just the depth it gives to some of what we talk about today, as if it were a new thing. It’s almost as if between the ancient and the present, nothing existed with any life, but this post reminds us of the ways in which folk have experimented and tried out different things, all of which is enormously valuable in terms of learning how to live in intentional community.
I strongly encourage keeping a watching eye on Steve’s blog, there is some real good stuff there.
I am becoming more and more convinced that one of the most significant problems in our society is money.
The story goes that Jesus told his disciples, ‘its easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.’
There’s a lot about that which makes sense to me. I honestly think that one of the pronciple reasons we arent a fairer, more just society is that we are too obsessed with getting and keeping money.
This follows on from my previous post, which groaned about the way our society is totally based upon the need for a growing economy, and the fact that the government exists in no small part to look after the interests of big business, as they are inexstricable from the needs of society as a whole.
My view on this is that we are too rich in our society. We have too much. If we had less, we would still be able to make do. But instead we have a lot, and we tie ourselves in to needing more. To get the nicer house, in the better area, we must work a bit harder, in a better paying job.
As we give ourselves over to work, we abandon the needs of others, who come a poor second to us when it comes to doling out the loot. It was love others AS yourselves, remember?
As we separate, living increasingly isolated lives, out of community with one another, leaving old people alone in their houses until its time for them to go into a home, as more and more single people make home by themselves, as marriages break up and divorcees become single parents, we all find ways of getting what we need to make our lives better.
But in doing so, we are participating in an unjust system, we are bringing war on people many miles away (war over oil, over gold, over collapsing brain drain economies), and we bring misery.
The kingdom of God, we are told, is justice, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. Our rich lifestyles bring the opposite. It really is harder for us to enter the kingdom of God, than for us or a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.
Until we can collectively turn our backs on this way of living, we can never exepect to see the Kingdom of God on earth.
I was going to write something about the Archbishop and Shariah Law, but then I read this excellent post by Richard Sudworth which says everything I would have said, and more in a clear and articulate manner…. in other words, he wrote a much better post.
I too think that Dr Williams is a highly intelligent and switched on character, and the big negative reaction is based on fear and ignorance of what Shariah law is.
There’s an interesting article on the LA Times website, which chronicles the ups and downs of a small ‘new monastic’ community experiment.
It makes great reading for any people interested in the practicalities of Early Church or monastic style community living.
At first I thought it seemed a bit bleak, as the reporter grimly recounted the difficulties faced by the occupants, difficulties I might add, which will be immediately familiar to any who have lived in community before - certainly where young children are involved.
But as the end of the article hoved into view, I found that it became far more encouraging, showing how the little group overcame many of their teething problems and began to pull together.
I am sure that they, just like any other similar venture, continue to struggle in one way or another, but the picture painted by the end was certainly upbeat. The cynic in me suggests it was perhaps too upbeat, none of the potential problems had actually occured… for instance there was nothing in the article about betrayal of trust by one of the visitors, nothing about sustained difficult times… and these kinds of experiences are the measure of the strength of such a community.
That said though, it really is a great look at a real experiment in community living - which is totally accessible to any of us. I really hope that this goes on to be a blessed and special place for all those involved.
The Anabaptists have got a great looking conference coming up in May, in the hope that there are still plenty of places, I’ll give it a plug here, they are running it in conjunction with the Northumbria community, and it’s called: ‘New Habits for a New Era? Exploring New Monasticsim.’
I’ve just printed off the booking form and providing we can make the necessary logistical arrangements, Kel and I will head up to Coventry in May, to hear what is said.
I thoroughly reccomend you investigate it…
I have been wanting to get hold of the book ‘The Early Christians in their own words’ for a while, since hearing about it in something Shane Claiborne wrote. Today I found that the book, along with many others is available as a free pdf download from Plough Books.
Plough is the publishing arm of the Bruderhof community, a radical Christian community aligned with Annabaptists and Bretheren types. Bruderhof community members have all their possesions in common, have no individual bank accounts, no salaries and so on. A radical way to live.
Some time ago, 2005 I think their online presence was removed, although Plough books have more recently posted all their books up for free download again. They are a fascinating bunch, well worth getting stuck into a couple of titles. I’m particularly looking forward to reading ‘The Early Christians’ and ‘Why we live in community’.
Well done Bruderhof for following through on your beliefs, and giving stuff away!